Henk Vermeer (BBB) on Mentor Leadership: The Secret Behind Successful Leadership

To watch and/or listen to the Dutch version of this podcast, please visit this Podcast page.
Henk Vermeer (BBB) over Mentor Leadership: Het Geheim Achter Succesvol Leiderschap 

SUMMARY

To watch and/or listen to the Dutch version of this podcast, pPlease visit this Podcast page.
https://www.elite-agile.nl/blog/Henk-Vermeer-BBB-over-Mentor-Leadership

Mentor Leadership is more than just a buzzword; it is a leadership style that revolves around supporting and developing others by providing space at the right time and leading when needed.

The interview with Henk Vermeer makes clear how this approach is crucial in both politics and business.

Henk explains how he sees his role as a mentor, by staying in the background when others need space, and stepping forward when direction is needed.

He offers valuable advice for anyone who wants to embrace Mentor Leadership: investing in self-reflection and personal development is essential.

By understanding yourself better, you can guide and inspire others more effectively.

These insights make Mentor Leadership an indispensable concept in a time when authoritarian styles are increasingly being discarded in favor of a people-oriented approach.

AUDIO VERSION OF THE PODCAST

PODCAST SCRIPT

Introduction

This is the first podcast in a series by Elite Agile about Mentor Leadership.

I am very honored that Henk Vermeer, co-founder of the super successful Dutch political party, BBB, the (B)Farmer-(B)Citizen-(B)Movement.

Is willing to do an interview on the theme of Mentor Leadership.

It turned out to be a pleasant and candid conversation, in which you can clearly hear from which values and norms Henk operates and how he became an exemplary Mentor Leader.

At the end of this interview, Henk also gives an important tip on how you too can follow the path of Mentor Leadership, so that you too can become a Mentor Leader.

Mentor Leadership is, in my opinion, urgently needed in politics, businesses, and the rest of society.

That’s why I hope this podcast inspires you to embark on this path yourself, or to become an even wiser Mentor Leader.

Enjoy listening!

Interview

Welcome to the HAF podcast series.

Are you struggling with scope creep, budget overruns, and delivery delays, in both Waterfall and Agile projects?

Then this podcast series is for you!

Discover how the Hybrid Agile Framework -HAF-, can keep your Waterfall, Agile, or hybrid projects on track and within budget.

We share practical tips.

Success stories, and in-depth insights to help you overcome every challenge.

Stay tuned and transform your project management with -HAF-.

Visit the podcast page on Elite Agile for more Podcasts, or subscribe now, and don't miss any episode!

Today in the new Podcast for Elite Agile, we will discuss Mentor Leadership.

I am very honored that Henk Vermeer, co-founder of the BBB, the (B)Farmer-(B)Citizen-(B)Movement, a rapidly growing political party in the Netherlands, has agreed to be interviewed for Mentor Leadership.

Mentor Leadership is something that is very important, both in politics but also in businesses and with teams.

I won’t reveal everything about Mentor Leadership, that will come naturally in the podcast.

So, thank you very much for being willing to be interviewed in this podcast.

Can you perhaps tell a little about yourself so that people who don’t know you, as this will also be broadcast abroad, can get to know you a little.

My name is Henk Vermeer, I was born on August 21, 1966, in the Veluwe village of Uddel. In the middle of the Veluwe region.

I attended my secondary education, HAVO, in Harderwijk. And since 1995, I have also lived in Harderwijk.

I am married, and together with my wife we have two children. She had 3 children from a previous marriage.

The children are now aged 26 to 35 and all live in Amsterdam.

I did my studies at the agricultural college, and then worked in the animal food industry.

First as a representative, then as a marketing manager, then as a director.

In the late 90s, the internet emerged, and I specialized more in online marketing and communication.

And I have mostly, but not exclusively, done this in the Food and Agribusiness sectors.

In 2018, together with Caroline van der Plas and Remco Voerkamp, we decided to form a political party.

And we officially did that in 2019.

During that period, I was a partner at a communications agency.

And since early 2022, I have sold my shares at the end of 2022, and I’ve fully committed to politics.

I was also a municipal council member and group chairman for 6 years of a local party. In Harderwijk, the largest party, 'Harderwijk Anders'. Coalition party, so I also know how a coalition works.

And actually, since I was 17, I’ve always done a lot of board work, at all kinds of associations, clubs, church, whatever. From sports club, club, up to, and including, football club, and church boards.

Following the example of my parents, who were a carpenter and housewife, who were always very active in community life and contributed to it.

And I can’t say otherwise than that you are super successful in the Netherlands. Just achieved a very nice victory in the last House of Representatives elections, and a majority in the Senate, so yes, really, yes, fantastic.

I’ve seen you act occasionally in the media, Henk.

And what struck me was that when you could see that Caroline was becoming overwhelmed, because she really was, I don’t know how many hours she worked in those early years, but I think she almost didn’t sleep.

And at some point, you could see that, she became less sharp, and you could see the fatigue.

And then I saw Caroline van der Plas move a bit into the background, and then suddenly Henk Vermeer appeared on TV.

And these are typically some of the characteristics of what I call Mentor Leadership.

Stepping back when it’s not necessary, and giving the platform to the one who can shine.

And when necessary, you take a step forward again.

Which brings me to my first question, because I approached you for this interview on Mentor Leadership, when you read that invitation, I can imagine you thought; Why are you approaching me?

Why do you see me as a Mentor Leader?

Do you have some feeling about that?

Yes, I do have some feeling about it.

But why I often say yes to interviews, is also because they help me organize things that I wouldn’t normally reflect on.

So, I’m glad people request interviews with me, and I can’t always fit them into my schedule, but in principle, I’m always open to it, because I’m always so much in action and flying from one thing to another, that I need these kinds of moments to reflect a bit.

And the questions from others help me do that.

That’s really nice. I’m glad I’m doing you a great favor, but you’re also doing me a favor by asking these kinds of questions.

And I am someone who thinks strategically, but that doesn’t mean I’m always very consciously focused on things, because I try to stay as much in the moment as possible.

Yes, it’s nice that you say that because if you look at the stages of learning; Unconscious incompetent, Conscious incompetent, and Conscious incompetent, that’s the sweet spot, where we’d ideally like to be.

And then you go to Unconsciously Competent.

And what you’re actually saying now is that you’re bringing the Unconscious Competence back to the sweet spot.

And then you get a very nice effect because what happens then is that you can see, I’m speaking from personal experience now, because I’ve gone through a similar process over the last six years, in my work

Where externally, people asked me; Hey, this works.

What are you actually doing?

I thought, I actually don’t know??

So and then I could bring it back to my Conscious Competent level, making it much easier to apply, which allowed me to apply even better.

So, I think it’s really nice that you say it that way.

Yes, and the interviews also help because people ask some critical questions, so they also bring you back to points where you might skip over too easily or pay too little attention, or whatever.

Well, that’s very nice.

Then I’m glad I can help you with that.

And you’re helping me again, because Mentor Leadership is really very important that we start living that again.

And maybe very briefly, I often compare it with, Mentor Leadership, and sometimes people look at me like; Huh? What do you mean?

And I often compare it with, you just said Henk, that you have children, I also have four children, by the way, one lives in Amsterdam, I’ve actually become a grandfather twice now, so that’s very special.

But I taught the children to ride a bike.

In the Netherlands, everyone rides bikes, so I taught them to cycle.

Well, and that’s such a nice example of Mentor Leadership, because when you put a child on their bike, you run, I don’t know how you did it? But I ran behind that little bike and helped the child ride a bike, and that’s what I see most parents do, and eventually, you start letting go of that child, and then the child says; No, no, no! Keep holding on, Dad!

No, you can do it. You give them confidence.

Well, and at some point, the child falls over, scrapes their knees, you comfort them. And you give confidence that they can do it.

And eventually, you see that child just riding around freely, after 6 weeks, you see them doing stunts that you can’t even do yourself!

So, and that’s such a nice example of Mentor Leadership.

And Servant Leadership, which has been very trendy in the last decades.

I was actually a big supporter of it myself, but I’ve completely changed my mind in recent years.

And the reason why?

Coaching Leadership is more like, comparing it to teaching cycling, Well, you give your child the bike then you tell them how to do it, then you stand on the sidelines and say; "I’m confident you’ll learn to cycle"

Let’s see if that child ever learns to cycle!

That’s going to take a very long time!

With lots of scraped knees, and they often give up.

So, I’ve seen Servant Leadership fail more in business, within teams, than succeeding.

And then people revert to authoritarian leadership.

And we’re seeing that more and more globally now, both in politics and business.

Do you recognize what I’m saying?

That’s right, that’s right, and I had to learn myself not to do everything myself too.

I’m very much in favor of working along and giving people the space to do it themselves, but it’s always a challenge.

That was also the case as chairman of my football club, for example. Yes, you can fill every gap in the bar schedule yourself, but that’s ultimately not the solution.

Unless you want to burn yourself out.

So there has to be some balance, but I’ve always been about working along and experiencing the position someone is in. And then you have to try to do that as briefly as possible.

And I had to learn at the beginning of my career, which also came out in assessments and such, that I really needed to learn not to get too far ahead of the troops, and to be around the corner, where the rest can’t see you.

So that you move too fast because, in my mind, I’m always already thinking about the next step.

While for many people in organizations, that may be important, but not always necessary to know what the next step is, or for some people, it’s even burdensome to know.

They stick to their current tasks.

So, you’ve also experienced in the past that when you started to get ahead of the troops.

Yes, then you lose people.

Then you lose people, but you mention a completely different, also very important other aspect, where you say; I want to experience it myself.

As chairman of my football club, the volunteers who run the canteen and the kitchen.

And they say; Yes, washing up, you know, we really need a machine for that!

Yes, you can say, Okay, go ahead, but you can also say; Yes, I’m going to help out myself and then experience what exactly is needed there?

And what is the best solution?

So, there’s always a tendency for boards to determine what’s best for people.

The best thing is when people on the shop floor can indicate that themselves.

You mainly invite them to do so by standing next to them sometimes and working alongside them.

And also saying; Well, this takes a lot of time, guys.

Yes, we’ve been doing this for years, you know.

That’s very interesting, because what you’re saying now, we actually get to one of the core characteristics, I think, of Mentor Leadership, which is that you’re aware that you need to have your boots on the ground, as they say in America, and in the Netherlands, we say; You have to have your feet in the mud.

And just do it.

For example, I work as a Senior Agile Coach, and the last project I worked on was a program with around 150/200 people, and it’s very easy as a coach to hover above those teams, but by nature, I don’t want that.

Because how do I know what’s happening within such a company, what dynamics are at play, if I haven’t had my feet in the mud myself?

So just get in there. So it’s really nice that you’re telling this.

The discovery of; What are we actually doing with Servant Leadership?

And we need to be mentors, is actually quite a new discovery. As I mentioned earlier, there isn’t much available on the internet at the moment.

But that’s why you see the old structures, the craftsmanship structures with a master and an apprentice.

That that, I think, is also very effective.

That you should also extend that a bit more, even in white-collar environments.

I find it really nice because what you’re saying now is exactly what I tell companies. Exactly the same!

Like; No, first you be an Apprentice then you become a Practitioner, and then you become a Master.

And that whole structure, which is still somewhat more present in Germany in their school system, where you are a ‘Geselle’, is mostly gone in the Netherlands, but that structure where you bring someone along is very important.

You could theoretically say, maybe it’s not entirely necessary, but because we now have the second, third, fourth generation who haven’t practical experience, is the distance enormous.

So, entire populations are growing up, who have completely lost touch with production.

Very visible in agriculture, of course.

People no longer know where food comes from.

They don’t know what it takes.

And therefore, make very different choices than those who still have that knowledge.

Like the agenda farming!

Like saying you’re not allowed to do this or that from September 1, on your land.

But spring was a month later, how do we solve this?

Or it’s raining now, so I can’t harvest, so I just have to wait a week.

And that same aspect, I’m currently fully engaged with work visits. Now that we’re in recess, I can do that without a daily House of Representatives agenda.

But then I also see that the industry is struggling with that problem. And to some extent, they caused it themselves, by putting fences around that industry, keeping the doors closed, and not telling what they do there.

But there is an immense gap between production and consumption. And that means whole groups of people who have no connection at all.

Nor their societal environment.

Not their father, grandfather, or grandmother, their mother, who don’t have that either.

But these are the people who are making policy, and we’re getting huge problems out of that.

And what you’re saying now reminds me of, I’ve worked some years, and preferably in medium-sized companies because the distance is less big, but I’ve also worked in corporates.

And the people working there at the c-suite level, as it’s now called, come from universities, come from a world that hasn’t participated in that production, but then they go on courses, learning how to connect with the people on the shop floor. And then you see very awkward things happening.

For example, the CEO, who periodically, not too often, once every three months, comes down, but then they dress differently from the people working in the IT departments.

But then the CEO comes down and goes to the people to "make that connection."

But it’s so awkward because it’s so NOT inauthentic that the people are sitting there thinking; Dude, what are you doing here?

And that guy feels very uncomfortable too.

But, he’s been taught he has to do it to make the connection, but that doesn’t work. That will only work if he says; I’ll just work with you guys for six months then he’ll see it. Yes, or just do it for a day.

And sit with them in the canteen.

Have that different type of conversation.

We wrote that into our election program at the time.

We called it, that everyone involved in policymaking should also undergo a ‘become-a-farmer-course’.

But that foundation, I found, I was also very glad that one of our ministers fed back to me that on his first workday, that the management team wanted to meet with him to discuss how things were going.

And he said; No, we’ll do that next week, because first, I’m going to talk to the people on the shop floor.

I want to talk to them first before I meet the managers because otherwise, that meeting is meaningless to me.

In doing so, he gave a very powerful signal to both the managers and the shop floor.

Like; I first want to see how things are in practice before I discuss how it runs in theory.

I can imagine the managers felt very uncomfortable with that. Yes, yes, yes, that brings us to a much more difficult topic, at the moment in society, that if that feels unsafe for them, for some, that insecurity is immediately a reason to file a complaint.

It’s currently very precarious to break through these kinds of patterns. Because it is taken personally and seen as an attack on the manager.

While this is just a different style of leadership.

And trying, and that’s what you always do in politics too.

I had one of our candidates in 2021 who always gave a good example of this; In our communication, we need to be careful not to be too activist or extreme.

But, he said; Sometimes it’s necessary to get a message across you have to bend a piece of steel a bit further than the point you want to reach because it always springs back a bit.

So, sometimes you have to push a little harder, and then that management layer needs to realize, Oh, this minister probably means well.

And not think; He’s trying to bring me down.

Because that’s not the case.

But then we come to another point, which is creating safety. You’ve also worked in marketing, I also have a substantial background in applied psychology, and related to marketing that we do within our company, I’ve also been quite involved in neuroscience.

So, you’re probably also familiar with the primary thing we need is safety.

And that’s why Mentor Leadership is so important, because at the moment you put that child on that bike and run alongside, you provide safety. But you still let them grow.

For example, in my work, they often ask; What methods do you bring?

And I have a method, and it’s all neatly documented, but I don’t find that important.

The only thing I’m looking at is, in the management layer, what are you afraid of?

And then they say; I’m concerned.

Acceptable words for; I’m afraid it won’t work.

And when you start doing things to take that fear away, you see them calm down.

And that’s Mentor Leadership, in my view.

You also see that in change management, of course.

You try to translate the behavior you see, and that’s what I always try to do, and that’s smart in marketing and communication, but also in politics. You try to translate the behavior you see, to where does it come from?

It’s still true that certain behavior, I’m just saying, looting a store, that’s just criminal behavior.

That must be dealt with harshly.

And only then comes the question; But is this just a criminal?

Or is this someone doing it out of desperation?

Or whatever.

Then you look further.

That’s also what a judge does, who says; This is criminal behavior, but I also need to see if there are mitigating circumstances.

And we always have to try to understand the motivations of people why do they do, what they do?

If we think too much like, huh, criminal behavior, that’s a criminal.

Then we judge people solely based on behavior.

Whereas I always try to separate the person and the behavior first.

That’s also what I discuss with managers and team members, again using a child as an example, I say; Do you have children? Well, then you’ve probably given a slap on their fingers, when they took a cookie after you’d told them ten times not to.

But that doesn’t mean you immediately judge that child for who they are.

You’re just judging the behavior.

Yes, and that’s what’s so beautiful about Mentor Leadership, I want to circle back to that, maybe as a conclusion.

I have two more points for the conclusion.

I’ve seen you in action leading up to the House of Representatives elections.

And when Caroline van der Plas was visibly just overworked at times, I saw you suddenly step forward.

And then, after a while, I saw you move back again.

What did it feel like to take that step forward?

What was the trigger that made you think;

Now I need to step more into the foreground?

And what was the trigger, and the feeling, that made you step back again?

Can you say a bit more about that?

Yes, it partly has to do with the fact that we agreed back in the summer of 2022, to say; Yes, we need to show with our next steps, toward the provincial elections, we need to show that BBB is more than just Caroline.

So, that’s a conscious choice for us as a group, so to speak, to do that.

And for the rest, it’s also, yes, that indeed, so that the party leader is the party leader, the group leader is the group leader.

So, they always need to be in position.

At some point, and fortunately, Caroline is also like that, she says; You know what, Henk, do you want to do this interview?

Or do you want to do that?

Yes, and then you step up, so to speak.

I learned over the years that unsolicited help doesn’t work either.

So, it has to happen naturally.

So, part of it is strategy already set in motion.

And part of it may become more visible at the moment that it happens, indeed.

When someone, yes, becomes tired.

Or, because of the intensity of the campaign and the media attention, you have to start sharing the load.

And yes, but it happens very naturally.

When you could provide that support, whether it was strategic or necessary, but you took that step forward.

What did you feel then, being able to do that?

I won’t say what I feel, I know where I want to go.

But I’ll say a bit about it.

Look, I first really had to think about whether in 2021, if I wanted that role next to Caroline.

Because until then, whenever I was on a board or something, it usually didn’t take long before I was chairman in one way or another.

People would ask me; take the lead here, so to speak.

And for me, it was also a discovery to see, how does it feel to be the person behind someone?

To be really the right hand.

Well, I’ve found that suits me just fine, but always with the understanding that if I need to step forward, I can do that too. And I’ll just do it.

And I think it’s beautiful to do.

I also enjoy it.

That’s just how I am, but because I found it’s fine to be the right hand, and that it also has all sorts of advantages, I can step back just as easily.

You know, I’m just looking now, my last name is Vermeeren, and yours is Vermeer.

But what you’re just telling me now, Henk, it’s like I’m hearing myself speak, really!

You know. I’d come into a place and in no time, I’d be Team lead or whatever.

And now, in recent years, you get older, and sometimes, age comes with wisdom.

And then you can take on that role more.

For me, I experience it as very fulfilling, being able to do it that way.

And finally, if you were to give advice to other people to develop more towards Mentor Leadership.

What advice would you give?

Well, I think the most important advice, and I’d actually give this to anyone, is to, if you want to invest in yourself, to focus a bit less on Subject-Matter Expertise.

And to focus more on personal development, so we look more at.

A bit of coaching, for some people, and at certain points in your life, I’ve done it myself too, even therapy can be valuable.

To discover more about, yes, what are your fears?

What are you afraid of? What limits your self-confidence?

Those kinds of things, to invest more in that personal development.

So, you have less noise when it comes to doing the Subject-Matter Expertise.

Actually, to put it simply, that’s how I’ve experienced it myself, that you get in your own way less.

And hold yourself back less from doing what you’re capable of.

And it’s usually not about, and we’re always inclined to think; Yes, I need that extra layer of depth, that additional course, whereas the greatest gains are in self-confidence, in yourself.

And also those courses, because I’ve done a lot of that stuff in my life.

And what I also noticed is that people would go from one training to the next. And were actually saying things like; I’m working on it. I’m developing myself, But I often asked; But are you applying it?

And just start doing what you learn, right.

And not just keep going from one course to the next.

Then it’s of no use to you.

The advantage I have is that I’m a doer.

Also just, try to embed it in my routine as quickly as possible, so to speak. And just do it.

And then you’re not always aware anymore, of what you’re doing.

Yes, then you’re unconsciously competent, right?

Well, Henk, I want to thank you very much for this interview, for taking the time.

And thank you, thanks a lot.

Thank you, good luck with your work, Danny.

Afterword

A very nice interview with Henk Vermeer of the BBB, the (B)Farmer-(B)Citizen-(B)Movement.

As I mentioned, if you don’t live in the Netherlands, the BBB is a young political party that has grown rapidly and has gained a significant number of seats in the Senate and the House of Representatives and is now part of the governing coalition.

Henk made it very clear during his interview that he uses these kinds of interviews to reflect, to bring unconscious skills to the surface again, and that Mentor Leadership is actually something that, is normal.

It’s something he now does "normally."

And he also clearly indicated in the interview that at first, he didn’t do that very often at all.

That he would suddenly be leading the troops.

Because he had certain insights and certain qualities to take the lead.

And as a result, he would be sprinting ahead of the troops, turning the corner as he calls it.

And then losing people.

And over the years, that has decreased.

When I look at my own development I see that same timeline.

At first, you’re building up your skill, you’re building your skills around people, and it goes well, and it goes wrong.

And when you keep reflecting, you’re able to, based on the experience and the knowledge you’ve gained, the experience with people, with processes, with laws, and everything that comes with today’s world, to distill wisdom from that.

And from that wisdom, you can support people, as a mentor, like in the example, of teaching a child to ride a bike.

You first guide them, and when the child is doing it a bit wobbly, well then you let them try it, and when they’re unsure, you’re there again to support them.

And you can do that because you learned to cycle yourself, and you can cycle.

So, you’ve had your feet in the mud.

'Boots on the ground,' as they say in America.

And when you’ve done that, you can guide teams, guide organizations.

From experience, from; 'I have been there.'

And then you can also walk your talk.

Otherwise, you’re just talking, and the risk is very high, that you’re telling all sorts of concepts and theories, but you can’t show them.

Because you’ve never done it yourself.

How can you ride a bike if you’ve never learned to ride?

If you’ve learned to ride a bike by going to classes and learning it from a YouTube video, from a book.

And then you stand in front of that bike, it’s quite different.

All those elements were clearly visible during the interview.

And it was very nice to see that it’s now an unconscious skill of Henk Vermeer, and that he has now become more aware of that.

And I hope that he can then use that again to do even better.

Well, just a little Outro for this interview.

There are more interviews coming up.

Stay tuned and I hope to see you there.